Micro Indie Cinema - Z1U or DVX100b?
A while back, I made the comment here that I believed purchasing the Panasonic DVX100b (24p standard def) camera was unwise (okay, I actually said STUPID) considering that you can pick up a Sony Z1U (60i high definition) for about $1000 more. My argument was, and still is, that an Indie interested in feature film production will ensure his/her movies to be more “future proof” and ultimately more marketable by choosing to shoot low-end HD(V) rather than using tricked out SD means.
When you’re talking about spending less than $5Gs on production equipment, I undoubtedly would advise people to shoot HD(V) even though they currently may not be able to shoot using the vaunted 24p look enabled by the DVX100b (and right, if we’re talking another $5G’s worth of money - everyone could just shoot on the HVX200 and get the best of HD and 24p and then puppy dogs and buttons would rain from the sky!)
But since, we’re talking about micro-budget Indie cinema, Jeff Klein of Neutral Collective makes a great argument for the DVX100b.
Jeff’s Words:
I don’t care what people say; a little one chip sony/jvc HD cam CANNOT make the same
quality image that a good SD cam can…It just won’t happen. The glass,
focal length, and design play such a big part, that when creating a
“feature,” you should really think about quality of the image getting to the
ccd/cmos rather than think of the codec/native chip res. A prime example is
28 Days, yeah they used XL’s, but with $10K 35mm film lenses on them. I
will always agree that the DV/HD(V) revolution is going to change the film
industry forever, but that is because it is a relative parallel between cost
and quality. And this argument about indie film making REALLY is more about
cost - the quality is already great across the board.
And the reality is, I bought my DVX100B, a crane, two wireless samson XLR mics, a tripod, a wide angle, 3 pc filter set, 4 3800mah batteries, 30 panny DV tapes , and still had some cash for lunch…..All for the same price as ONE Z1U would have cost.
And that is the idea…I just got everything I need to make a movie for under $4400…and I can assure you that it will look just as good on a SD TV, DVD player, or Projector (with still makes up 90% + of the market).
Furthermore, we haven’t even discussed the edit/computer issue and cost when
shooting HD….save that for another day….but I will say this…Needing
those sort of resources and money [the current costs of making and HD feature, which CAN be considerably more than shooting SD] doesnt seem very independent.
But then again they are calling Mel’s new $100 million movie independent…
–
Jeff makes a really solid argument here: For the cheapest form of Indie Filmmaking, the IMMEDIATE cost/benefit of shooting high-end SD vs low end HD(V) seems to favor DVX100b production. However, I personally believe this argument to be extremely short sided, and therefore, bunk.
For real world considerations, what does this mean?
$4,500 equipment budget
High-end SD gets you a camera, filters, mics, carrying case, tripod, small crane, a bunch of blank media, and lunch. Assuming you have modest post infrastructure in place, you’re good to go.
Low-end HD(V) gets you…a camera. Plus, now you need to beef up your editing and storage systems. This will require you to find more outside resources, therefore making you “less” Indie.
–
Okay, so shooting SD may be a solid “real world” argument where micro budgets are concerned, except for the fact that by definition, most Micro Indie Filmmakers are extremely resourceful AS IS. I believe that MOST Indies would welcome the task of having to “borrow” mics, tripods, and other miscellaneous equipment if their end product would HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF BEING SEEN BY A LARGER AUDIENCE (and come on; no one here is going to tell me that a 24p SD production is more marketable than a 60i HD(V) feature). In addition, post production on a HD(V) feature DOESN’T HAVE TO cost more than a SD production. Specifically for the Z1U; label all your tapes properly, be smart upon ingesting (break your clips up), and bring in all that footy at SD resolution.
If you consider yourself a crafty fimmaker and barterer, the end benefit of shooting a low-end HD(V) feature is that you’ll have your SD ready cut for the same price as shooting SD natively.
And to sweeten the deal, when those distributors come knocking again for the HD rights, you’re already in the game, whereas your DVX100b counterparts will be SOL. Sure, you may have to get a little more creative in getting shit done, but that never hurt anyone’s production.
i call shananagins on the the both of you jk
funny how you too are friends and doing the dueling banjo’s on sd,hdv
my 2 cents personally hdv is not my cup of tea either
less then good audio to deal with 4 2 0 color no thanks
id rather shot with a dvx100b or just get the andromeda upgrade and get 4 4 4 ohhhhh boy .
anyway for now the hvx wins for what i like to shoot with
until red comes out and then everyone sells there soul or half since its cheaper then a vari cam with better specs to shoot the next indie flick , oh wait indie flicks are the new commercial thing now.
to late
Comment on May 13, 2006 @ 7:49 pm
Why the Z1U? If budget is the over-arching concern, then Indies would be DOH! to not go with the FX1 instead. The numbers change significantly if you choose the “consumer” Sony. And since the imager and glass is the same, you sacrifice little. You can live without Black Stretch…
And don’t tell me you need XLR inputs on a camera that is just going to compress the crap out of the audio stream anyway. Might as well put an iRiver 790 or 900 series on a boompole with a decent mic and be done with it. You’d end up with better audio capture, and you’ve at least got some control over the bitrate. And it’s damn cheap.
Comment on May 17, 2006 @ 7:33 am
The gear ain’t the problem anymore. At least 90% of the time. It’s our creativity and vision.
Not that it isn’t important and fun to discuss gear. But so many ‘filmmakers’ spend too much time saying things like “I’m waiting for my RED camera to shoot anything”. When they should be out there doing things.
Comment on May 18, 2006 @ 10:50 am
Creative people are never SOL. If your distributor wants an HD version of your DV feature. There are several free ways to uprez it to HD.
#1 Blow it up in FCP or AE.
#2 Use a deck Like the Panasonic 1200 that upconverts DV to HD.
#2 Use an external upconverter.
I did a lot of testing on this when HDV cameras first came out and found that in most cases, the DVX100 footage blown up to HD looked far better than native shot HDV. It has a lot to do with Cinegama and progressive capture.
If you don’t believe me, try it yourself.
HDV is fine for interlaced HD, but for progressive framerates, you need progressive capture.
Comment on May 18, 2006 @ 5:28 pm
Good words as always, PAT!
–
JD
#1 - You’re nuts - AE and FCP blowup are not acceptable quality options for ending up with HD material. This should only be done in a pinch for short clips that could end up being highly treated as to mask the rasterizing. BAD IDEA
#2 HDNET had some crazy proprietary (read: f*cking expensive) upconverters and they were only to be used in case of emergency. HDNet / HDNet Movies broadcasts at 1080i and 99.9% of the time upconverted material, even if well done, was not allowed on air because YOU CAN TELL IT’S BEEN UPCONVERTED.
DVX100 blownup looking better than native HDV? Dude, please let me know what you’re sprinkling on your Corn Flakes because I’d like some too. Sounds like a party.
Comment on May 19, 2006 @ 9:38 am
re: FresHDV
Were you serious about iRiver 600?
I’ve been looking around for a small audio back-up throwaway.
Just to leave around for dialog or ambient sound.
mmg
Comment on May 21, 2006 @ 7:34 am
I have two words
November, Murderball.
Comment on May 22, 2006 @ 7:41 am
I would shoot 24p without question if you’re making a NARRATIVE FILM. If you’re doing a documentary or similar you can go 60i HDV.
So for a movie, out of those two choices the DVX is the right one. Filmlooking the interlaced HDV (or any interlaced video for that matter) does not look anywhere close as good as 24p. And the gamma curves are crucial too in the DVX that the Sony doesn’t have. Your movie will have a lot harder time getting out there if it is shot interlaced (believe me I know from experience - distributors and even festivals want a cinematic look - not a soap opera look).
And if you need to go to HD just upconvert through a Teranex box to HDCAM or D-5 HD. I’ve done it with great results matching DVX footage to Varicam footage.
In the end story matters most, but right up there is a cinematic look if you want your film taken seriously.
-Blake
Comment on June 7, 2006 @ 11:36 am
Hi, I’m having an disagreement with a production friend. He insists that it is possible to convert a Panasonic DVX100B to full HD (with memory sticks) for around $800? I think he might be sprinkling his cornflakes!! What do you say out there in videoland??? Cheers,Patrick Campbell, Director of Fairway to Heaven the new campy Caddyshack!
Comment on August 31, 2006 @ 4:23 pm
“And to sweeten the deal, when those distributors come knocking again for the HD rights, you’re already in the game, whereas your DVX100b counterparts will be SOL.”
What about when you get a few nice HDV dropouts? Who’s SOL now?
There also more affordable uprezzing solutions for DVX users like InstantHD from Red Giant that look promising.
Bottom line, both cameras will do the job and they are almost equal when you are comparing progressive SD to downconverted HDV. Just use what you can get your hands on and stop making excuses because you think you need to shoot 1080P HD @ 60fps for it to be good.
Comment on September 4, 2006 @ 11:35 pm
DPX
Um, that’s about the worst argument I’ve ever heard. HDV dropouts are not a problem unless you’ve damaged your equipment or are reusing/ abusing MiniDV tapes.
There may be affordable uprezzing options IN THE FUTURE (as you say - they look promising), but if you need HD now, the Z1 is the way to go.
As far as you last paragraph goes - the whole point of the article I wrote was the that the Z1U is more utilitarian the and the DVX for this type of production. Too many people think they must have 24p for a project to be good.
- That’s a myth I’d like to dispel.
Comment on September 5, 2006 @ 10:11 am
Patrick Campell
Your friend is indeed hitting the sprinkled cornflakes. The only way to convert a DVX into HD possible capture is via the $3,000 Andromeda mod which captures to a laptop or mac mini.
Comment on September 5, 2006 @ 10:13 am
[...] Josh Oakhurst and a friend discuss the merits of Indies-On-A-Budget purchasing the Sony Z1U over a DVX-100B for production. They argue cost vs. quality both ways, but I find it strange that the FX1 option isn’t part of the equation instead of the much more expensive Z1U? [...]
Pingback on January 15, 2007 @ 11:26 pm
Wow…great arguments from both. But in my opinion, its too soon to decide and the camps are too drawn away from each other. So in a situation like that, logic says its better to get the affordable 24p camera (which im getting for my first film) because you can always upgrade.
It sucks not to enter a festival because you arent able to lose the interlaced formats (who doesnt want to watch Days of Our Lives on the silver screen?! lol).
As it becomes more practical to convert, then people can choose where to start. Filmmakers, stick with 24p, its the whole look and feel of your film.
Documentary-makers can go avant-garde with their projects.
Because no matter how vivid and clear the image…itll still look like lil Alex coming out of the coma.
Comment on February 7, 2007 @ 3:52 am
WOW! the last guy just said it all straight. This was a big decision for me, because I was ans still kinda am worried that if i go dvx100b that it will be way out dated soon. But i spoke with a panasonic salesman awhile ago and he said for me to run the HVX the way that I can currently run the DVX would cost me around $15000! not fucking worth it. Plus even with HD like how long do I have to wait to export it at full res? oh wait I can get a blu-ray burner at Fry’s….NOT! And seriously how much does a blank blu-ray disc cost? like 10 box or something…yea DVX hello.
Comment on June 5, 2007 @ 10:08 pm
Now you have the Sony hvr-v1u with true 24P, and priced very aggresively. a 3 chip cmos camera that takes beautiful HD footage you can film out with. needs a little extra lighting in low light scenes as perhaps its only fault. $3,349 after 300 rebate a B&H. this is not a little one chip hd camera you can dismiss offhand. so do you want to shoot in 24p dv or 24p HD - thats the only question? of course you will need an hd editing box, and system upgrade to edit your footage. well worth the effort. i pushed thru a system wide hd upgrade this year for one simple reason. if i am going to bust my ass shooting, i sure as heck want it to be hd. i did a 300 man hour 30 sec spot recently as example. it looks awesome on the hdtv…
Comment on January 20, 2008 @ 2:08 pm