$10,000 Indie Examples: HVX vs. Andromeda vs. Else???
***If you’re looking for the HVX test clips, scroll all the way to the bottom***
Call me Mike Curtis Lite.
Over the past two weeks, I’ve been consulting on two different Indie gigs. The challenge? How to make $10,000 work for an HD production and post production package?
Thing is, $10,000 isn’t a lot of money if you’re planning on shooting in high definition and are starting with little to no post-production infrastructure. With $10G’s, it’s extremely difficult, if not impossible, to pick up all needed HD capable production AND post-production equipment, not to mention having enough funds for, oh….I don’t know…people, props, wardrobe, lunch, travel expenses, etc.
Following below are the stories of two Indies, their $10,000 choices, and my observations.
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$10,000 BUDGET - Daniel’s Version
Daniel wants to shoot the opening two minutes of his film to use as a fundraising tool to grab $800,000 - $900,000 in order to finish the rest. To complete this task, he saved $10,000 over one year by working an IT job, of which he promptly went out and spent $8,500 on:
- (1) Andromeda-tized DVX100a
- (1) small crane
- (1) Red Rock Micro M2 adaptor
- (1) set of Nikon Lenses
- 60 GB worth of 2.5″ bus powered hard drives
- (1) dolly
- and (1) 10′ x 12′ portable greenscreen.
His film calls for anime-stylings in a live-action setting, and he’s using part of a friend’s empty warehouse space to shoot some of the greenscreen setups. Daniel has taught himself Shake and plans on doing all the compositing work himself.
His post inventory consists of (1) G4 Powerbook, and though he purchased the Andromeda because of it’s 4:4:4 capture abilities, he admits that his current ‘puter is nowhere near up to the task of handing a steady stream of HD material (let alone handling multiple compositing effects in Shake).
But now WELL into his $10G budget, Daniel still needs:
- lights (the 4:4:4 is worthless without proper lighting on that greenscreen)
- ANY audio recording method (The Andromeda doesn’t record audio natively. He could go audio straight to tape on the DVX simultaneously, but he still needs various microphones, XLR cables, and stands or a boom pole)
- (4) cast members over a three day shoot
- (3-5) crew members over a three day shoot
- (1) makeup person
- wardrobe
- props
- enough $$$ to buy three lunches worth of pizza for 8-10 people who are going to be working for little to no pay
AND, he’s trying to accomplish all this IN THE NEXT 30 DAYS.
Soooo……what do we have here?
PROS:
Daniel is smart and very mature. He’s super motivated, and very aware of many angles his production is going to require. He spent a ton of money on some really sweet gadgets that make pretty images, and now he’s got a van full of really sweet gadgets that make pretty images.
CONS:
Daniel has a van full of really sweet gadgets that make pretty images and little knowledge on how to use them. This is his first production of any kind, and he has given little thought to the very REAL WORLD constraints of asking 8-10 people to all get the same three days off, for little to no pay, during the next MONTH.
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Moreover, though Daniel will be spending 10 times as many hours compositing than he will be shooting, he spent 85% of his budget on acquisition equipment and….0% of his budget on post gear. Right off the bat, spending that much of his budget on acquisition equipment sounds a little suspect, especially considering he only needs the camera and associated peripherals for three days.
Keep in mind, Daniel is not planning on personally running any of this equipment, so he’s left himself very little room to find the right people to run said equipment, pick up the remaining gear he needs, and have any $$$ left over for post, (and if he didn’t factor in a comfy chair into that budget, he should have).
What other options did he have?
Easily, Daniel COULD HAVE first dropped $5G’s on an HD capable editing/ compositing system. A used Quad Core G5, 20″ monitor ( Apple / Dell / whatever), HD capable video card, passable HD monitor, and decent set of speakers could all be had for that price. Additionally, had Daniel not chosen the Andromeda, he could have sold his laptop and added another $1,500 to his post budget.
After calling around town and contacting some peepz I’ve met in Portland over the last two months, I figured his remaining HYPOTHETICAL $5,000 COULD THEN HAVE been spent on:
- $500 - $1,000 on lights and greenscreen (rental or purchase)
- $600 for a sound person ($200/ day X 3 days)
- $1,500 for cast/ wardrobe, makeup, and props
- $500 - $1000 for crew and dolly/ crane (rental or purchase)
- and $2000 - $2,500 bucks to rent a very qualified DP WITH HD CAMERA, or:
- $1,000 - $2,000 to rent a camera package and $500 - $1,000 for a DP
Keep in mind, all the above figures represent Portland, Oregon figures at Indie rates. Other market prices for equipment rentals, purchases, or peoples’ time will vary with the city you live in and the availability of said equipment or people in your area (For example, Los Angeles my have a plethora of F900/ F950 rental options, but those options would most likely tend to be very pricey because of the market. On the other hand, if there are too many rental houses competing for Indie business, you may find yourself a good deal. Additionally, Des Moines may not have any F900/ F950 rental shops - therefore assuming if there was such shop, they could command top dollar for it. But, if there does happen to be a CineAlta in Des Moines, there’s a good chance its not being used very often, and consequently, you may be able to hire its owner/ operator for an extremely cheap rate).
Additionally, where “(rental or purchase)” with a $500 swing distinction has been noted, I’m generally referring to the fact that some people WITH GEAR could be hired for a certain price, OR some people WITHOUT GEAR BUT WANTING TO WORK WITH SUCH GEAR could be hired cheaper if you provide said gear.
CURRENT SOLUTION:
Since Daniel is now about $8,500 deep in equipment, I advised him to use as much of the remaining funds on people as he can. Due to the intricate nature of his planned shots, he’s got AT LEAST two full days worth of equipment testing, and his yet-to-be-assembled novice crew is going to have to figure out all his gear very quickly. He plans on paying his crew at least a little bit, say $70 bucks a day, and knows his remaining $1,500 is as good as spent.
For post-production, well…he’s kinda screwed right now. His original plan, though contradictory, was to purchase all the production gear he needed, then sell most of it back off in order to buy a bigger, better, faster computer to run all his compositing. But, when asked why he bought all the production gear in the first place, just to then turn around and sell it (at a loss), he said that he wanted to buy all his gear NOW which he’d use for the rest of the feature, even though he’s looking to grab almost a seven figure budget. And remember, HE HAS NO PLANS FOR ALL THE GEAR HE BOUGHT, AFTER THE INITIAL THREE DAY SHOOT, UNLESS HE FINDS FINANCING FOR HIS FILM.
So what to do for post? Since there’s no turning back, Daniel needs to stick with his post-production “plan” and sell off his camera gear. He really doesn’t have a choice. His PowerBook is not going to cut it, so he may as well pawn that on eBay and hopefully he can come out ahead with at least $5,000 he can drop on the minimum amount of post gear I mentioned above.
As for sound? Well, Daniel’s NOT A SOUND GUY and admits his complete ignorance for all things sound my cause him to under-think sound solutions, but at the very least he understands the importance of sound. This leaves him the two options (which he’s currently debating) of HIRING A SOUND GUY, or committing a large chunk of his own time in post to creating ALL SOUND FROM SCRATCH - a task he said that he’s personally committed to, if needed (I like the first option).
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$10,000 BUDGET - Ryan’s Version
Ryan wrote a feature script, saved $10,000 G’s by remodeling houses, and plans on going 100% the DIY/ self reliant route. Message boards and marketing materials told him that an HVX 200 could make his images (/film) look “the most real”, so naturally, that’s where the first $6,000 of his budget went.
Knowing that P2 cards are outrageously expensive, Ryan plans on just using the 4GB version that came with the camera. He wants to shoot and edit his film in 1080 24p, and plans on using his existing consumer HP laptop connected to an external USB drive to dump his footage to in the field.
Ryan also picked up a nice tripod, has a MiniDV glidecam from back in his VX2000 days, and plans on purchasing around $1,000 in microphone equipment.
At this point, Ryan’s decision to purchase an HD camera makes a lot more sense than Daniel’s. Ryan plans on shooting indefinitely, which is something you can’t do, with say, a rental camera.
However, knowing that he’s planning on directing and shooting and audio monitoring ALONE, it seems that purchasing an HVX with only four minutes of capable record time allowed would be an unwise choice.
Thusly, along with asking his actors and whatever crew he’ll find to work for free, he’s also going to have to ask all these people to wait around for four minutes of P2 dumping time every time he locks four minutes of footage.
His preliminary solution, in theory, is that he’ll only be saving the best takes and therefore erasing production mistakes as they happen by deleting them from the card immediately. Surely, this is a huge advantage of P2, but Ryan has certainly not thought out the real world constraints this workflow is going to have on his actors.
First off, no scenes longer than, well…four minutes. Sure, if you write your script properly, you can get around that. Second, “Okay, that take #54 was all the way good until the 3:30 mark…Do I spend time dumping this off the card and doing a quick pickup, or erase and hope the amateur actors finally nail the quirky dialogue on take #55? Hmmmm?” Lastly, I know film crews have done this for decades, (shoot ten minutes and then stop to change mags) but here’s one key difference. Ryan will probably be alone. He’s carrying a tripod, the camera, headphones, a boom pole, and his laptop. He has no budget for shooting permits and will be stealing a lot of locations - on the fly.
Am I saying P2 makes this situation impossible? No. But in Ryan’s case, he’s already reworking his script around P2 constraints. The reality of a no-budget, long-format production with a highly constricted workflow is starting to set it….BUT AT LEAST HE HAS 24P!!!!!
All this, of course, is assuming Ryan’s existing laptop will support a PCMCIA reader (most newer PC laptops motherboards do support PCMCIA readers, but somtimes cheap-o laptop cases my not have a built in slot). If not, Ryan may be able to find an external USB bus powered PCMCIA reader or sell his existing and pickup a different laptop as he hopes to avoid plunking down $1,600 on a P2 Store.
But if his laptop is already P2 ready, after his HVX purchase and upcoming $1000 spend on microphones, Ryan is looking at $3,000 remaining in his budget left over for post equipment, production needs, and people.
At this point, he’s pretty much ruled out having to pay anybody (either cast or crew). Moving on, he thinks he can get all the props, wardrobes, and associated production needs for under $1,000. So, with $2,000 left, he’s looking for an editing solution.
Hmmm…a $2,000 1080 24p editing solution???
Oh yeah, he’s already got a 30″ Dell monitor…..
[...crickets sounds...]
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SOLUTION
Okay, all is not lost for Ryan’s editing needs. Here are his options:
1.) Hire a freelance Indie editor. Earmark $2,000 for a gracious independent editor with his own tricked out FCP bay and schedule times to work on cutting the film together.
2.) Buy a used Dual Core G5 off eBay and hope that it comes magically preloaded with Final Cut Pro version 5.0.4. Hook up Dell monitor, cut film with no reference monitor, using new field headphones, and hope distributor (…if there is a distributor, of course) pays for mastering fees.
3.) Dump all P2 shooting from laptop to external drive (Ryan thinks he can get away with a 300GB drive). Buy two drives and keep one for backup. Complete all shooting of film (while not viewing any of the clips post data transfer), then sell HVX and microphones and buy a Quad Core G5 Edit bay (as listed above) with newly acquired $5-ish-thousand dollars.
What other options did Ryan have?
Ryan, needs equipment for the long-haul of his production, and would like to shoot and edit himself. He wants to acquire in HD, but has ZERO post-production infrastructure in place. If he were starting over, I would recommend he first sell his PC laptop and earmark AT LEAST $4,500 for a MODEST HD ready post setup (such as mentioned before in Daniel’s case, only Ryan already has one of the two monitors needed).
For acquisition, I’d then tell him to either:
A.) Buy an FX1 for $3,500, spend another $1000 on decent mics, find some dedicated friends and talent, and use the remaining $1,500 to help you pull it off by either paying for these people’s time or splurging for other misc. production needs.
Or…
B.) Earmark $2,000 for a HUNGRY, YOUNG, and LOCAL DP who owns an FX1, Z1U, or JVC GY-HD100U and will work for cheap ($100 a day for 20 days of Indie shooting - that guy or gal might be out there….), then take the remaining dough and hope said DP has a HUNGRY, YOUNG and EQUIPMENT OWNING sound friend who’ll work for about the same cash, and use the remaining $2ish grand on remaining crew, talent, and miscellaneous production needs (of which are numerous).
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IN SUMMARY:
The crux these two $10,000 Indies are running into is that they want to own the latest and greatest Prosumer HD cameras and the computers needed to edit their footage in addition to microphones, green screens, dollys, cranes, 35mm adaptors, and tripods along with having enough cash to pay for people, props, and pizza.
As we’ve seen above, owning an HD camera AND a necessary (pro-platform) editing system ALONE is hard to do for $10,000. If you’re starting from scratch (or just above), $10,000 is probably not enough to feed your HD production wants. SD? Sure. But HD production and post-production are going to be a real stretch on $10G’s.
Even if you do manage to pull all the equipment together, you’re still looking at having little to no cash left over for the most important asset of your production…PEOPLE.
Look at it this way. You may have a warehouse full of the most state of the art technology money can buy. Maybe your local camera dealer and rental shop handed you the keys and said “GO NUTS!” Everything you want to make “real images” is in there….BUUUUUTTTTTT….if you’re working alone and asking your friend the burger-flipper to use his expertise on cleaning the grease trap to set up lights, pull focus, and man the crane….you’re still not making a film.
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What else have we learned?
1.) Ambition is required to make in the Indie world. However, said ambition can be DANGEROUS when coupled with the overzealous desire to own a fancy new piece of fun technology. Hey don’t get me wrong, being the proud owner of a shiny new camera is awesome, but if your life’s ambition is riding on the $10,000 hard earned dollars that you saved, UNLESS YOU HAVE A PLAN TO MAKE THAT CAMERA PAY FOR ITSELF, dropping 60-85% of your TOTAL PRODUCTION BUDGET on acquisition may not be the best solution for you.
2.) The Marketing Is Working “Indies! Wide Eyed Dreamers! Come forth! All your desires will come true - if only you purchase this super-ultra-neato MAGIC BOX!” Indies in unison: “Oooooohhhhhhhh! You mean I can PURCHASE a PRODUCT that instantly turns me into SPIKE JONZE?! I want three! Then I’ll be like SPIKE JONZE times INFINITY, or rather, SPIKE JONZE times three!”
Is this an unfair dig? Perhaps. Do I occasionally suffer from “Wide Eyed Syndrome”? Oh, hell yeah. And do some of these MAGIC BOXES do really sweet jobs of helping you realize your dreams? Absolutely. But the key here people, is BALANCE. Think it through. You just slaved away mowing lawns for the last three summers to raise the exact same amount of money you think Kevin Smith, Sam Raimi, Robert Rodriguez, and Wes Anderson each spent on their first strokes of genius. You owe it to yourself to SLOW DOWN and first find THE PEOPLE you need to help you (be it actors or crew), and THEN figure out what TOOLS each of those people need in order to help you best.
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Shameless Plug: And specifically, if you need consulting on your next Indie project, please contact me directly at JOSH AT JOSHOAKHURST.COM, and I’d be happy to help steer you in the right direction so you can find the proper people, equipment, and prices that fit your production style and budget.
As for these two guys, I’m very fortunate to have met them both, and I’m hoping they both can find ways to make their productions work. I wrote previously, that there would be HVX clips to look forward to, and here they are.
After Ryan came to visit me for his initial equipment consultation, here’s my 15 minutes of shooting and 30 minutes of editing attempt at story with the Panasonic HVX 200. Enjoy:
HVX TEST CLIPS
- iPod version [2.8 MB]
- 302p version [26 MB]
***UPDATE: the following two links were taken down because my server was getting hammered. Email if you’d really like to view the higher rez versions***
- 404p version [36 MB]
- 720p version [83 MB]
All the QT versions were encoded using .h264/ “high” compression. I’d say about 50% of the softness you might see is due to the compression, 30% to my newness with the camera, and 20% due to the camera itself. Other than where obvious, I didn’t muck much at all with the color. And BTW, that’s HVX owner Ryan Mayes starring.
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UPDATE: See what Grand Master Ayatollah Mike Curtis Has to Say - Possible MacBookPro DVCPRO HD Editing suggestion (among other musings)?
Good stuff, Josh. I don’t always agree with you, but I am always happy to see someone willing to give advice to people that sticks to details and fulfillment instead of whether you think the main characters should get drunk on page 20 of the script.
What it sounds like is that both your boys need some time building up tit-for-tat people to work with, that is, they have this sweet camera, and they should find someone with a editing system who wants time with a sweet camera, etc. Build up a little involvement in the local community, allow your baby to do a little travelling (with you along, of course) and that fills up the gaps on all sides.
By the way, having worked with a P2 card set (I have 2 and a P2 Stor to work with them and yes, that’s $2700 I’m not seeing again), shooting with one card is borderline insane. Buy two. Please.
Comment on June 12, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
This is just what I needed to read right now. I’ve been considering all of the above and I don’t even have the $10k that these guys are starting with!!!
Actually I’m still in the dreaming/planning stage so it’s not like I was about to go buy a camera today, but it still has helped to ground my thinking a bit.
Thanks!
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 6:11 am
Re: “Hmmm…a $2,000 1080 24p editing solution???”
If you think outside of the mac for moment, yes it can be done. A cheap dual core PC (Intel D820 or D830, or AMD X2 4400+) with two SATA drives in RAID-0 - $1000, Sony Vegas 6 $450, and CineForm Connect HD $199 (for P2 media compatibility.) OR if there is old Premiere license around, use the same PC with Premiere Pro 2.0 upgrade $199, plus CineForm Aspect HD $499 for real-time 1080p24 editing. Both solutions will offer around $300 left over from your $2000, enough to upgrade to a graphics card with HD outputs — e.g. Matrox Parhelia AVPe.
David Newman
CTO, CineForm
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 9:51 am
Thanks for writing David.
While CineForm is certainly a kick ass product, I’m not convinced that either Sony Vegas or even Adobe Premier Pro are Pro-Level Editing Apps.
However, for other Indies on a miniscule budget, this may be an option.
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 10:01 am
Josh,
Feature of feature when looking closely at all the “??? Pro” products, none of them are “pro-level” — yes, including FCP. They all have amazing gotchas — “what where they thinking” is a reaction I often have when using these NLEs. However, that is why there are consultants like yourself, helping others avoid to the gotchas. Premiere Pro and Sony Vegas can work perfectly well for film applications — we have done, and our customers have. You should re-vistit to find out what can and can’t be done today.
David Newman
CTO, CineForm
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 10:40 am
Good article. At the end of this summer I’m hoping to buy a camera as well, but I’m in a completely different boat. I’ll be headed into my second year of college, but I waited two years before entering school. I spent those two years working videography; weddings and such, and learned Final Cut and cameras. As such, when I buy a camera I plan on making it pay for itself, as my Powerbook has already done.
Unfortunately I’m only going to have about 4grand at the end of the summer, so I’m looking at a FX1, a beachtek, a good tripod, and some good microphones to start off with. I sure would love a Z1 though, but beggars can’t be choosers.
Great article.
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 12:02 pm
Hey, Josh. I edited BBS the Documentary, which is a 5.5 hour, 8-episode documentary on 3 DVDs, on Sony Vegas 5.0. It’s pro-level. Or, at least, I was able to use it as such.
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 12:26 pm
Josh, great site and great read! Just wanted to jump on the pro Vegas bandwagon - great program and perfect for small budget production. Not only do you get a great editing app. but a very powerful audio app. all in one easy to use program. Of course I’m biased because I think it’s the best regardless of cost but hey, I’m a mutant…
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 1:16 pm
Great read, all the way through–
I hope that by adding a comment, I’ll get on some kind of mailing list to read your advice whenever you post new stuff.
It sucks to get caught up in the new-technology hype.
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 2:23 pm
“The Puffy Chair” is out in theatres now after premiering at Sundance 2005. The guys have a deal with Universal now. They shot everything with a DVX100 24P. Let’s not forget “Super Size Me” (Canon miniDV), “Chuck & Buck” (dv), etc.
We all want our films to look nice, but the bottom line is the quality of the script and the concept. That’s all that audiences really care about in the end.
It’d be nice to be able to shoot with a HiDef camera, but if you’re a struggling indie filmmaker, it just doesn’t make sense. ESPECIALLY considering there are only a handful of festivals that actually project films in HiDef anyway (Sundance, Tribeca - I’m sure there are a couple more).
For the 10K, I’d buy a DV 24P, a nice editing system, lights, mikes, and use the rest to pay crew.
Oh yeah - and you’re gonna wanna budget about $500 worth of that 10K for festival entry fees, if you’re going that route.
My .02 anyway.
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
Thanks for the kind words all.
Sony Vegas, huh? Any Vegas/ FCP/ Avid Editors care to note key differences?
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 8:18 pm
Hi Josh I can related to this artisle in regards with working or advising ind films. I work in post productions and when it comes to work flow on any production large or small, post production is the is the key. If you sort out the format you going to shoot, audio, grading, vfx and equipment (camera, pc,mac) you save alot of problems in the long term. You need to decided if you are doing an offline or an online edit. If you doing an online in HD you need alot of TBits. If you going to make a inde movie it is best to know someone in post production or with filmmaking experience for advice. Adive is free money is not. In regards for editing I recommand apple production suite and at least 2TB of storage.
Comment on June 13, 2006 @ 9:48 pm
on the money, literally! Josh…great post…real world situationals while struggling with nano-budgets really spell it out for anyone gutsy enough to pull of such productions
keep it up bro!
Comment on June 14, 2006 @ 2:43 am
I’m a bad person for double posting.
Josh, very cool article and I bet you’ll be able to help these guys make their visions come true.
On audio (just because on a website linked to this people are arguing over silly things again):
MP2 audio doesn’t sound as good as a CD does. CDs don’t sound as good as good vinyl does. And then there’s those 24bit super audio discs.
But guess what? The music industry learned that the kids of the world are utterly happy with MP3s. And MP3s kinda bite.
Right tool for the right job. MP2 is just fine for dialog unless you’re shooting a big ol’ feature film which will get theatrical distribution.
And there are not many people here doing that.
What’s way worse than MP2 audio is a shitty soundman.
And a good DP can make a movie with a DVX100 that looks better than an amateur’s Varicam.
Comment on June 14, 2006 @ 8:34 am
Very good article. This is top shelf reading,I would suggest you continue to write articles like this. If you post situtations like this all the time I am sure you will help many indie shooters. 10k budget for a movie I suggest buying a fx1 and a dof adapter to shoot with. You can edit hdv on almost any apple g5 so get a dual 1.8ghz of ebay for $1200 or a macbook with final cut express. buy 2 400gb hardrives maybe $400. One to edit on and one to backup on.
Comment on June 14, 2006 @ 9:16 am
Josh, good article.I think post is the second most technically important part of a film. (Audio being first). Stop, think, plan. Don’t start running in a direction just for the sake of running. Think about it for a minute then walk. You’ll get there faster and cheaper. Like with a production schedule, work backwards from post.
As for my two cents on the post suites. In the professional world no one uses Vegas, no one uses Premiere. Now I know people are going to jump all over me for this and I am over generalizing, but its Apple or Avid, just the way it is. If you work in an insular evironment and don’t need to work with other facilities use whatever you can afford & like to work with. If you need to outsource any work, such as a off hours online with a junior operator to finish your film, chances are its going to be FCP or Avid.
Now the best edit suite is no longer made and it was Discreet Edit. Every editor I talk to who ever used it still loves it to this day, weather they are working on Avid or Apple now.
Comment on June 14, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
“As for my two cents on the post suites. In the professional world no one uses Vegas, no one uses Premiere. Now I know people are going to jump all over me for this and I am over generalizing, but its Apple or Avid, just the way it is. If you work in an insular evironment and don’t need to work with other facilities use whatever you can afford & like to work with. If you need to outsource any work, such as a off hours online with a junior operator to finish your film, chances are its going to be FCP or Avid.”
Great point Allan - precisely what I meant.
Comment on June 14, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
Here, here! People have to be paramount. I can’t help thinking that it’s actually irresponsible to blow your budget on gear in the belief that people will simply work for free.
One thing I would add to the discussion, is the importance of tests - testing your workflow from beginning to end. I encounter a lot of productions where it seems that nobody tested a thing. Diving into a project without testing cameras, post-processes, and output options strikes me as a reckless way to spend any amount of money.
I’ll look forward to reading about where you guide these and future productions.
Comment on June 14, 2006 @ 7:20 pm
Josh,
I’m curious if you giving a bit more information about purchasing a used computer for HD editing. You mentioned in the first case that for $5,000 this would have been easy to do. For those of us (and I admit I may be the only one here operating with this low-level of knowledge) not comfortable with buying big purchases on Ebay would you mind detailing the system you had in mind a bit more?
The setup I currently use was not intended for editing, and while it has managed to do what I need to do so far, I now that soon (especially if I venture into the realm of HD) it will cease to get the job done. My computer savvy is not what I would like it to be and I find that I am often unable to properly evaluate what I need in a possible future computer.
Like many of the other people posting here I currently use Vegas.
Any input or advice regarding purchasing used computers and setting up a better editing environment would be greatly appreciated.
Comment on June 15, 2006 @ 5:20 am
Hey there.
I’ve taken a day to use the required “cool-off” period before responding about what is “professional”.
I think it comes down to it being a loaded word. People think the opposite of “professional” (for pay, competent, hard-working) is “amateur” (not well done, freebies, one-offs, undependable). I know nobody’s meaning it that way, but that’s how it comes off. I spent 8 months, 50 hours a week, editing my episodes for a resulting amount of 7 hours of episodes and bonus footage. And I sold that resulting work (and still do) for into six figures and counting. I am, as far as I’m concerned, professional, and I used Vegas the whole way.
May I propose, instead, the phrase “Industry Standard” or something along these lines. It may sound like semantics, but I think it’s an important distinction. I think most of us who use Vegas would agree that, yes, most of the big places are going to be using Avid or FCP, or support it, where they might not support Vegas or other such packages. The standard. Maybe places can handle our .veg files and maybe we can work with them in Vegas, but we wouldn’t be surprised where they couldn’t, whereas we’d be surprised if they couldn’t do Avid.
Deal?
Comment on June 15, 2006 @ 2:04 pm
I agree with the first comment from Jason. I would definitely see what I could trade/borrow/barter before I plunk down all that cash.
I know that with a few phone calls I could get cameras, lights, audio gear, edit systems, plus DPs, grips, editors, engineers, etc. etc. More than enough to get a start, and greatly reduce my cash payout. I’m sure there would be holes to fill with rentals, for example, a dolly or makeup artist, but it would still cut my budget dramatically.
Comment on June 16, 2006 @ 4:58 am
My first post here- excellent article.
Just like to second Jason for proposing ‘Industry Standard’ as appropriate term. Barry Green has a good post on dvxuser.com where he was asked what can you do in FCP that you can’t in Vegas or PPro (assuming latest versions of all those programs).
His answer: basically nothing. It’s always in the hands of the person using the software. Would you rather hire an amateur FCP editor or a very seasoned PPro editor?
Buying /renting cameras/hiring DP… May I suggest you also need to think about your long term goals? If you just want to work with actors, and not get into gamma, focal lengths and all that then hire the professional.
I bought a camera (and I admit to being a tech junky) but I use it to do a bit of paid videography which helps with the bills.
I also videotape community theater, events, demo reels for my actors and other people. It’s built up a lot of good will with various talented people. I also spend a lot of time filming different things (indoor/outdoor, different lighting, etc) so I get to know the camera well.
Comment on June 16, 2006 @ 8:40 am
To John Sullivan Above:
Hey brother, I noticed you didn’t leave an email address - otherwise I would have contacted you directly. Go ahead and email me with your needs/ wants/ and budget and I’ll advise you personally on some options.
–
PROFESSIONAL SEMANTICS
Debating Vegas Professional/ Not Professional vs. Industry Standard Professional is debating just that - semantics.
Dennis beat me to it, but software alone does not make someone professional. Blanket knows (I use my cat’s name Blanket in place of God or Lord BTW) that there are many “professionals” out there calling themselves as such just because they own “professional” equipment.
And yes - hire the good editor with whatever software he uses, not the mediocre editor just because he’s using “pro” software.
But in terms of playing Devil’s Advocate, at some point you must draw the line in terms of professionalism to the point to where semantics cannot be debated. FCP vs. Avid vs. Vegas vs. Premiere Pro = semantic debating: All can produce “professional” results though not all may be “industry standard”.
However, if someone’s movie found distribution but they cut it using only two VCRs, that person may have produced a “professional” product (all quality aside), but you would certainly not call the gear professional.
Comment on June 16, 2006 @ 9:31 am
Seeing as how I started this “Professional” software debate I will throw in another 2 cents bringing my total to $.04…
Jason, I thank you for your well thought out and reasoned reponse, I was expecting a much more rabib response, as people take their software as seriously as their soccer. Now I am going to agree with Josh on this and say Professional and Industry standard go hand in hand.
All suite packages can generate “Professional” results with the right additional hardware put in. When the industry as a whole accepts a product, then it becomes professional, not until then.
Right now Vegas and PPro are where FCP was a few years ago. When I see television stations, major network shows, and studio pictures using Vegas and PPro on a regular basis I will then consider them professional products. Until then, the “_” remain.
Just as a side note. I have seen Apple’s website play up a documentary that won some awards and got distribution, it was cut on iMovie. Now I’m pretty sure that I am safe in saying that iMovie is not a professional product, but it goes to show that all these technical disscusions are just wanks between geeks, myself included. Content is king, never forget it.
Comment on June 16, 2006 @ 12:22 pm
I just shot a music video using the HVX200.
As a working commercial/music video producer I was able to bring in an amazing crew at very low rates as a favor for an up and coming director and band.
We rented all the equipment because a $6000 video camera does alot more when it comes with Prime lenses, 2×8gb cards, a firestore, full matte box, professional tripod, steadicam, remote head crane, 3 HD monitors etc.
Most of our budget went on crew, and talent, plus a decent amount on catering. Pizza is for kids parties and football games. Get breakfast, lunch and snacks and you’re crew will not only be happier but have the energy to work better.
We also spent a large proportion paying an editor with a full edit suite to cut the video.
The two most important things for me as a producer is to get the most experienced crew and give them the best equipment to perform their job. Always work within you’re budget. We could have bought an edit system for close to what we were paying an editor, but an edit system does not come with 15 years of experience pre-loaded.
Just because you shoot HD doesn’t mean that the project is worth being shot that way!
If you are starting out I would suggest using the following: Final Cut Express (or equivalent), a $350 DV camera, a cheap laptop. Spend most of you’re time in pre-production and experimenting. Once you can tell a good story with these tools then think about going with more professional gear.
Lastly if you are going to spend a year raising money to make you’re epic movie then take a little time out and work in the lowest position on a set. That way you can watch what everyone does and learn how a real crew works. All crew members love telling you stories of what they do and how they do it. That experience is invaluable.
Comment on June 16, 2006 @ 10:55 pm
Without turning this into a “yes no yes no” loop, I simply have to disagree. Industry Standard doesn’t turn something into professional and leave all other applications in the dust. Everyone uses Microsoft Word, but a lot of us use Open Office 2.0 as well and are quite happy… even interoperable.
Vegas is a mature, high-quality product. “Professional” is, I still contend, a denigrating word, dismissing someone’s choices and work. I am sure you don’t mean it that way, but that’s how you end up clogging the pipes in a discussion. Firing off “Vegas, Meh.” achieves nothing but to divide people who should be in the same basic camp into highly divided ones that any director, screenwriter or non-editing crew member would be sneeringly nauseated by.
Do lighting people do this? Say that if you use one brand of lights you’re not professional, or say there’s only one real light in use out there? Do sound people do it with microphones or recorders?
It spins wheels instead of travelling forward. Let the Vegas people be aware they’re not industry standard, but calling them not professional (which quickly contracts to “unprofessional”) creates animosity out of thin air.
Comment on June 19, 2006 @ 11:15 pm
I think Pav’s got it right.
Director Robert Rodriguez has often said that every film maker has 2 or 3 terrible movies in him…”it’s best to get them over with as quickly and cheaply as possable.”
Comment on June 21, 2006 @ 6:20 pm
Perhaps this might sound a little odd, in Daniel’s plan I see absolutely no reason that he should own a camera, lights, dollies or any grip gear for that matter. Basically Daniel’s shooting a demo reel to show to investors, the delivery format for the demo reel will be on DVD. Which means, there’s still no reason to shoot in HD, save alot of computing power and storage by using HD. Since he’s going to compositing everything himself, the great investment would be in a mac running Shake. I’ve done something similiar to his project using a rental Canon XL1 and a mini 35 adaptor. Before the fire starts over SD vs HD, a properly edited, shot, scored, color corrected, sound mixed SD or HD short or feature will make no difference whatsoever to the investor you’re trying to get money from. Both of them have to decide, do I want to own a camera so I can call myself a director (or camera operator,) or do I really want to make movies and direct/produce. In my country we shoot an episode of afternoon soap opera for 5k. Cool slick visuals aside, but I think you both are looking at this the wrong way. Think “producing a movie” not think like a camera man. I also recommend you rent most of your production gear, since you will probably need them only during the short duration of your shooting days. Spend money on people, you’d be amazed how much acting improves with 200 bucks pay increase.
Comment on June 22, 2006 @ 2:21 am
Just an after thought, sound is really half of the movie going experience. Abit it is the perversely ’silent’ part. Recommend you talk to some students at SAE or FullSail, or those audio engineering schools, a creative mind with low rates can be had.
Comment on June 22, 2006 @ 2:23 am
I’d spend $9,999.98 on the script and .02 on the movie.
When will indie filmmakers learn that being a director means being a storyteller! Write a compelling story with fully realized characters and audiences will flock to see your movie even if it’s a slide show.
If Kevin Smith were like these guys he would have neer made Clerks. Fortunately he was not. He chose badly shot B&W 16mm with bad acting and virtually no directing ’style’ and yet an entertaining story with characters we’d love to spend a whole day with let alone the 92 minute running time of that film. And it launched his career; which is the frequent goal of a first film, no?
It’s about the story not the toys we use to tell the story.
Comment on June 22, 2006 @ 8:28 am
I don’t think it hurts to have an understanding of the process, either. For my first film, I shot a 3 minute short that used a lot of the shots that I would need for my full blown film.
That film cost me $100 for catered food. Nothing more. The equipment was all purchased (I spent about 20K total on gear)so that it can be re-used over and over.
I knew every role of every crew member. I taught the sound mixer and the boom operator their jobs. Only the DP side of the fence was handled by my wife (who is a pro photographer by trade and DP via UCLA extension).
Now I have experience with the technical side of doing an HD film and my focus becomes one of pure story. At the end of the day, it’s just common sense.
Comment on June 28, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
[...] I got over it. There’s a ton of equipment, and it all does cool stuff. I encourage anyone who caught the wide-eyed bug to step back and reevaluate why fancy gear made you happy in the first place. [...]
Pingback on September 19, 2006 @ 2:06 pm
[...] Josh Oakhurst has posted detailed analysis from a recent consulting gig, entitled “How to make $10,000 work for an HD production and post production package?” There are a few camera test clips at the end of the article. [...]
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Comment on February 26, 2007 @ 4:41 am