Sony’s New HVX-200/ P2 Killer - And Why I’m Staying Out of This Flame War
Regular readers here may have noticed a steep drop off of tech related articles over the last few months. This distancing from equipment related posts have been calculated.
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IN TEN YEARS, camera, computer, and hardware debates/ comparisons will cease to exist. Imagine a future in which comparing camera specs are akin to analyzing typewriter models. Think of it -
No one argues that their writing is better based on the equipment they used. The advances in digital video capture are leading the film market into just this scenario - EQUIPMENT ACCESS FOR EVERYONE.
Right now we move pixels in a volatile world. Equipment needed to make magic runs from $500 to $5,000,000, and technology advances outdate equipment almost as fast as you can pay it off (wouldn’t you hate to start a rental house these days? Sure there’s a lot of demand, but how do you justify new expenditures that loose value so quickly? Is the demand for gear greater than the rate of depreciation? What about in five years?)
It is under this premise of equipment futility that I have ceased interest in “wanking over specs with geeks” (as we’ve termed it ourselves).
I noticed all this enamorment with new technology created a barrier in my brain with creativity. Gone were the days of creating art, shooting things - writing things; instead replaced with what COULD be done instead of what I WAS doing.
So I stopped caring. We know now that camera and post gear is here to help us. There are cost effective solutions that run the gamut from Indie productions to huge studio features.
I got over it. There’s a ton of equipment, and it all does cool stuff. I encourage anyone who caught the wide-eyed bug to step back and reevaluate why fancy gear made you happy in the first place.
I’m not even saying it best here. Barry Green has a great rant over a DVXuser about this same principle, and Mike Curtis chimes in with his thoughts here.
BUT THAT SAID……This new Sony HVR-V1U 1080 24p HDV camera is a better buy than the Panasonic HVX-200. Pricing:
$4,800 MSRP
- Sony HVR-V1U: Record 62 minutes of 1080 24p HDV footage to MiniDV tape
$5,500 MSRP
- Panasonic HVX-200 with stock 4GB card (4 minutes of 1080 24p DVCPRO HD footy)
$6,600 MSRP
- Sony HVR-V1U
- Sony HVR-DR60 60 GB Hard Disk Recorder
$7,400 MSRP
- Panasonic HVX-200
- FireStore FS-100
The Sony setup provides 4.5 hours 1080 24p HDV recording time compared to 1.5 hours of DVCPRO HD recording time on the FireStore. The FireStore is also more expensive and has shipped with a decent amount of third-party hassle. Sony’s recordable hard drive is manufacturer spec - no third-party bugs to work out. Also, you can SIMULTANEOUSLY record 1080 24p footage to tape AND to hard drive with the V1U setup - not so with the HVX.
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UPDATE
Douglas Spotted Eagle has a great first-look writeup on the V1U (including test clips) over at HDVinfo.net. Two WMV files from the V1U are included in the article - I took the liberty of converting one of them to an iPod version using the free Flip for Mac trial plugin. Obviously the iPod version doesn’t show off the 1080 24p specs but you’ll be able to see how nice the picture is (I added a bit of color correction - just turned down the blacks a bit - nothing more).
Additionally - remember that Panasonic is standing on an island with their P2 recording method. HDV has been destined as a future proof format by the manufacturing conglomerate of JVC, Sony, and Canon. Even better is that MiniDV tapes recorded using this new 1080 24p HDV are BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE with existing Sony HDV decks (that’s a HUGE bonus).
Oh HDV artifacting BLAH BLAH BLAH 4:2:0 color space BLAH BLAH BLAH variable frame rates BLAH BLAH BLAH - doesn’t matter - THE NEW SONY HVR-V1U is a better value to consumers than the HVX. It ships in DECEMBER OF THIS YEAR.
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I state the above arguments not to incite rage but to simply illustrate a point. If there is any one thing I’m interested in as a production or post-production consultant it’s that I WANT PEOPLE TO SAVE THEIR MONEY. Money is precious when you’re an Indie show. You don’t need RED ONE to make your feature, you don’t need HDCAM SR, hell…you don’t even NEED 24p. And that’s the point.
In a decade - we’ll all have cameras - just cameras. No spec comparisons, no Internet flame wars, no feeling cooler than the next guy because your gear is newer. There is a threshold to how far 2D acquisition advancement can go, and we’re blazing to it.
Then they’re all just typewriters. Access for all who want them. And that’s a good thing.
You brave man.
But you’re right. 100% right.
Comment on September 19, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
heh ya as pat says you are brave
but you’re not right.
seriously, as long as their is money to be made, these companies will find ways to suck our wallets dry. If not 2D acquisition then some gimmick to record in 3D or whatever, but as long as movies are made and money is made from movies, companies will find ways to make us pay them gobs of money to buy the newest, latest and greatest toys to make our movies even better, be it special in-cam color correct, better and faster built-in lenses with super-night-shot-low-noise-shooting-mode to higher quality 10:10:10 blahblahblah
it’ll keep going on and on…
they’ll find a way to empty your wallets, don’t you worry.
and then they’ll just keep raising the quality, first 1080 24p then 2k, 4k, 8k, 1001239781239123k @ 65000p coz everyone will have projectors built into their cell phones.
technology will constantly improve and to provide quality for our technology, film-makers will have to record at ever increasing quality levels.
then theres storage… see they could release a 10k cam but who other than Google and Walmart have enough EXABYTES to store the data? hehe
Comment on September 20, 2006 @ 2:55 am
I still remember the last episode of “When DVXusers Attack!”
Any bets on how soon this gets posted, and they commence to start to begin to rip Josh a new one?
Comment on September 20, 2006 @ 11:48 am
LOL - I’m flame retardant now.
Comment on September 20, 2006 @ 12:46 pm
What, like we just have “cars” now, Josh?
Just have “TVs”, just have “Houses”?
At no point will cameras become just cameras. Your analogy to writing is off-focus; people still care about how they arrange writing, hence web-page design, printed media, and so on.
What DOES happen is certain aspects of media/creative production become “default” and no-longer of import. For example, nobody tends to base televisions on their ability to handle cable signals or display cable channels; this is just expected that it can do more than 2-13 on VHF. You can certainly buy 2-13 VHF TVs, but it’s not a lauditory difference, just a specialization/clean-up manufacturing situation.
Similarly with video cameras, eventually color-space will flatten out; they’ll just be 4:4:4 or whatever all across the board and that ceases to be an issue.
But no, it’ll never be just “cameras”.
Sadly, Barry’s article about the movie business is a bit off as well. Enjoyable link and I would have missed it otherwise, so thanks for that.
And this may be me, but I sure as heck see a difference between a sony camera-shot image and a panasonic one.
Comment on September 20, 2006 @ 2:02 pm
Sorry, but the HDV format alone makes the HDV camera not worth it. As long as you compare HDV to DVCPRO HD, HDV will lose….IMHO. Key with HDV…FORGET IT!
Comment on September 20, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
Not apples to apples Jason: cars, houses, and TVs are luxury items
- The camera (just like a typewriter) is a tool - a means to facilitate creation. Some may see cameras as material items to display and prance about with - but they are artistic tools, no more.
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Shane-
I’ve Keyed 100’s of shots with the Z1U - lighting makes the key.
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JO
Comment on September 20, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
Alright, my people of HVX200 land have officially started battle.
Engage, you HDV fundamentalist.
Oh wait, you don’t want flame wars. So I am just supposed to sit here and take your shit. Not fair.
Comment on September 20, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
I keep forgetting how wide the gap of perception is between is. I withdraw before this gets ugly.
Comment on September 21, 2006 @ 12:39 am
funny how protective people are of formats, NLE’S ,Cameras and other dodads .
Lets call MTV have the celebrity death match come back for the 2 big fights HDV VS HD
And Blu-ray VS HDDVD(oh wait no one will win this its a stalemate)
Instead of whinning on this post or on DVXuser or other blogs why dont most of you get out and use your shit instead of talking about what does what .
Prove it……………….
Comment on September 21, 2006 @ 6:15 am
Hey Josh! Have you ever pulled a key from DVCPRO HD? Oh… c’mon… (By the “BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH” arguments you so unprofessionally omitted, and what is worst DISRESPECTING all the people who refer to sites like this, like YOURS!!! to base their decisions on) I assume you didn’t.
Not apples to apples JOSH…
Respects!
Comment on September 21, 2006 @ 6:32 am
HAHA - Ajit you crack me up.
Listen folks - Nowhere in the above article did I say the V1U is a BETTER CAMERA than the HVX. I LIKE THE HVX….buuuuttttt many adopters of the HVX chose it over the Z1U based on the fact that the HVX featured 1080 24p - any problems associated with the P2 recording method were potentially “outweighed” by the 24p feature.
Now that the successor to the Z1U features 24p, is much cheaper, and features 1080 24p tape enabled recording - the benefits of choosing the HVX and associated “hassles” don’t seem so clear.
Again - not saying the HVX suxxx - but I’m predicting the V1U is going to eat up the HVX’s market share because of the price and the ease of recording options.
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HDV issues:
1.) Motion artifacting: can already be reduced by smooth camera operators, will be helped by 24p A LOT, and I in general will be greatly decreased with this new generation of camera. Does POSSIBLE HDV artifacting outweigh P2’s price, limited recording time, and hassle? Joe Consumer will say NO WAY.
2.) HDV Keying issues: first, lighting makes the key - second, Joe Consumer probably doesn’t own a greenscreen anyway. If you do a ton of keying as is, you probably often shoot in a studio (meaning your post-gear is theoretically close by) and therefore limited recording times with the HVX aren’t an issue. But, Joe Indie is most likely going to be on location WITHOUT his post gear and usually without a GREEN SCREEN.
Additionally, the V1U pulls 4:2:2 off the chip and then records it to tape at 4:2:0. It’s likely whatever format the HD records in will not need such compression - BUT EVEN IF IT DOES - color space waking means very little to 99% of the people who will end up viewing the footage - again, wanks between geeks here.
3.) HDV Timeline Issues: HDV conforming issues suck (for newbies, conforming is necessary by some NLEs when mixing HDV footage with other codecs or when writing HDV footy back to tape). DVCPRO HD is certainly preferred - but, if comparing the HVX and the V1U - I don’t see POSSIBLE HDV conforming issues outweighing the HVX’s/ P2’s price or limited recording times.
If $600 128GB P2 cards existed - then we’re talking a different story.
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Walreeves - Respect Massive to you bro.
Yes, I’ve pulled tons of keys with DVCPRO HD and even MIXED HDV AND DVCPRO KEYS on the same timeline. Again - LIGHTING MAKES THE KEY.
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Jason - no need for this to get ugly (as you can see).
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JIM -
Although much more aggressively than I chose to express myself, you certainly echo my sentiments - I’m trying to shoot more instead of think about what’s possible to shoot. I see so much fussing about formats and gear that I wonder if some of this energy would not be better spent being creative instead.
That’s kind of the point of the whole article I wrote.
In the end - I DON’T CARE WHAT CAMERA’S PEOPLE USE TO MAKE THEIR MAGIC. Despite some views I am camera and format agnostic - we live in an age when great art can be made from all kinds of tools. At the end of the day I just wish for people to hold on to as much of their dough as they can, and I want the means of creating art to be accessible and as trouble-free as possible for all.
Comment on September 21, 2006 @ 8:25 am
>>Then they’re all just typewriters.
Typewriters?? What are those?
Comment on September 21, 2006 @ 10:08 am
Josh your dead on.
You can have the new 4:4:4 camera, the $40,000 AVID machine with greatest of set of After Effects plug-ins and you will still make an awful steaming pile of … video, if you don’t know how to use those tools.
If you like uncompressed, buy a HVX-200. If you can only afford a V1U, buy a V1U. If you value ergonomics, buy a JVC. If you want to meet girls, buy a Cannon. Doesn’t matter.
It’s a bad workman that blames his tools and what ends up on the screen is all that matters.
Comment on September 21, 2006 @ 2:34 pm
I want to meet girls. Canon here I come. ‘Cause it just looks so f’n sexy on my broad manly shoulders…
Comment on September 22, 2006 @ 8:21 am
I say this because I’m shooting something with a… gasp!… xl2 next month.
Yeah. I said it. Standard Def.
Not my choice, but the director’s.
Comment on September 22, 2006 @ 5:09 pm
Just two things:
HVX has Leica lens, Sony hasn’t. Leica lens are better than Sony’s. They have a better picture quality.
Salud!
Comment on September 30, 2006 @ 4:38 am
Gearhead arguments have always annoyed me, so it’s refreshing to read a similar attitude on your site, finally, Josh.
Having said that, I do have a quibble with your support of HDV. This quibble is not based on hardware, but rather software, specifically codecs.
HDV uses the GOP-based MPEG2 format which is absolutely atrocious when it comes to editing. This is a critical point, and what killed HDV for me when I finally had the “opportunity” to work with it. You said it yourself above when you addressed the three main criticisms of HDV: “HDV conforming issues suck [...] DVCPRO HD is certainly preferred.” Again, this is what rules HDV out for me forever.
Again, this isn’t about hardware or cameras, per se. It’s about using a codec that causes the least amount of problems. As an artist, I absolutely detest dealing with “video problems.” I want high quality images, but more importantly, I want workflow simplicity and tools that reduce the risk of encountering technical difficulties. In this way, the ability to acquire using the frame-specific, editor-friendly DVCPRO-HD format is worth the $800 difference in price between the two cameras you compared here. No question.
I would tell my consultation clients to avoid HDV like the plauge. It is a cynical format that sacrifices editing quality for acquisition quality. Your footage may look great on the original tape, but it will fail you where it matters most: in post-production. The $800 saved buying the Sony over the HVX is fool’s gold.
Comment on October 25, 2006 @ 12:06 am
That should be “plague” not “plauge,” naturally. Bleh.
Comment on October 25, 2006 @ 12:08 am
Would the avid DNxHD codec solve any postproduction issues? Avid claimed that it would be free for everybody to use, someday.
Comment on October 31, 2006 @ 8:09 am
This is a great article and discussion, thank you all so much. I’ve been so confused about which camera to get on my limited budget that this honest conversation is VERY helpful.
So, I’m an independent producer and indi-sfx guy. I don’t want any problems keying my green screens, and I’m willing to pay more (I suppose, sigh) for the HVX200 if the DVCPROHD is really that much better than the HDV from this new Sony…
But, I wonder what the images will look like compared to the HVX. Can anybody speak to what shot against shot these cameras will do? I mean, maybe the new COMOS chips will look super sweet? Maybe not. Anybody?
Thanks again for this great discussion…
Josh
Comment on November 6, 2006 @ 5:43 pm
I feel compelled to write something here because I am in the market for a camera (thruthfully a canon xh-g1 vs. the v1 spoken of here) and I feel there are some major technical points nobody has addressed yet. To be honest, I have a few questions that I would like to bear. For the record, I am a recent college graduate who has shot mostly dv on gl2s and xl1/2s but I have had experience using some broadcast gear and I worked in a 10bit sdi studio for a year. So here it goes.
I don’t see the format being as much of an issue here. I have heard numerous reports that panasonic put an inferior camera infront of the p2 drive. Will better resolution make up for a better format? (Sony lists there CMOS sensorys at 1.12 mp, the canon 1.12 mp, the Pani, I couldn’t find a spec for)
The leica lens being better? Is that confirmed, and again, does my previous question make this a non-issue? I would be willing to bet that the canon lens would beet the leica.
Keying? I don’t plan to do much keying, I don’t have much experience with keying and the little I do was done with a hardware keyer in a studio. Wouldn’t more resolution make a better key? Would the uncompressed output of the canon and sony make keying easier? (The HDMI output option would make things very inexpensive for an uncompressed workflow)
Editing workflow quams: Would the add on hard drive for the sony be able to output via HDMI? If not, maybe in a future firmware version? Capturing hdv as dvcprohd or even the dnxhd codec for avid would probably quell this.
I am not interested in the hvx, partly because of the p2 format, but mostly because of the reviews I have read about this camera. Check out this post, http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77039
Lots of gret info.
I was considering buying a dvc-30, because I was amazed at how good the images were comming from a $1700 camera. Does a grand make the difference just to go with a format the encodes at four times the bit rate? Is the camera worth the extra information being encoded?
I hope my questions were pertinet and well founded and I will be able to find the answers somewhere.
Thanks to all of objective people who have posted here…
Greg
P.S. the dynamic range of the hangglider footage is almost as good as 35mm stills I had digitally scaned.
Comment on December 6, 2006 @ 5:33 pm
[...] Josh Oakhurst has some thoughts on the new Sony HVR-V1U, calling it “Sony’s New HVX-200/ P2 Killer.” All in all he seems to like the new camcorder and has posted a cost breakdown of the V1U vs the HVX200. For me, I’m stoked to see another 24p option on the market, particularly in the sub-$5K price-range. Competition is good. [...]
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