Comments on: Sony’s New HVX-200/ P2 Killer - And Why I’m Staying Out of This Flame War http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/ An Ongoing Case Study in Art & Commerce Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:59:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: P2 Killer? Panasonic HVX200 vs Sony HVR-V1U cost analysis at FresHDV http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-6485 P2 Killer? Panasonic HVX200 vs Sony HVR-V1U cost analysis at FresHDV Tue, 16 Jan 2007 05:19:11 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-6485 [...] Josh Oakhurst has some thoughts on the new Sony HVR-V1U, calling it “Sony’s New HVX-200/ P2 Killer.” All in all he seems to like the new camcorder and has posted a cost breakdown of the V1U vs the HVX200. For me, I’m stoked to see another 24p option on the market, particularly in the sub-$5K price-range. Competition is good. [...] [...] Josh Oakhurst has some thoughts on the new Sony HVR-V1U, calling it “Sony’s New HVX-200/ P2 Killer.” All in all he seems to like the new camcorder and has posted a cost breakdown of the V1U vs the HVX200. For me, I’m stoked to see another 24p option on the market, particularly in the sub-$5K price-range. Competition is good. [...]

]]> By: Greg Hartzell http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-4863 Greg Hartzell Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:33:32 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-4863 I feel compelled to write something here because I am in the market for a camera (thruthfully a canon xh-g1 vs. the v1 spoken of here) and I feel there are some major technical points nobody has addressed yet. To be honest, I have a few questions that I would like to bear. For the record, I am a recent college graduate who has shot mostly dv on gl2s and xl1/2s but I have had experience using some broadcast gear and I worked in a 10bit sdi studio for a year. So here it goes. I don't see the format being as much of an issue here. I have heard numerous reports that panasonic put an inferior camera infront of the p2 drive. Will better resolution make up for a better format? (Sony lists there CMOS sensorys at 1.12 mp, the canon 1.12 mp, the Pani, I couldn't find a spec for) The leica lens being better? Is that confirmed, and again, does my previous question make this a non-issue? I would be willing to bet that the canon lens would beet the leica. Keying? I don't plan to do much keying, I don't have much experience with keying and the little I do was done with a hardware keyer in a studio. Wouldn't more resolution make a better key? Would the uncompressed output of the canon and sony make keying easier? (The HDMI output option would make things very inexpensive for an uncompressed workflow) Editing workflow quams: Would the add on hard drive for the sony be able to output via HDMI? If not, maybe in a future firmware version? Capturing hdv as dvcprohd or even the dnxhd codec for avid would probably quell this. I am not interested in the hvx, partly because of the p2 format, but mostly because of the reviews I have read about this camera. Check out this post, http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77039 Lots of gret info. I was considering buying a dvc-30, because I was amazed at how good the images were comming from a $1700 camera. Does a grand make the difference just to go with a format the encodes at four times the bit rate? Is the camera worth the extra information being encoded? I hope my questions were pertinet and well founded and I will be able to find the answers somewhere. Thanks to all of objective people who have posted here... Greg P.S. the dynamic range of the hangglider footage is almost as good as 35mm stills I had digitally scaned. I feel compelled to write something here because I am in the market for a camera (thruthfully a canon xh-g1 vs. the v1 spoken of here) and I feel there are some major technical points nobody has addressed yet. To be honest, I have a few questions that I would like to bear. For the record, I am a recent college graduate who has shot mostly dv on gl2s and xl1/2s but I have had experience using some broadcast gear and I worked in a 10bit sdi studio for a year. So here it goes.

I don’t see the format being as much of an issue here. I have heard numerous reports that panasonic put an inferior camera infront of the p2 drive. Will better resolution make up for a better format? (Sony lists there CMOS sensorys at 1.12 mp, the canon 1.12 mp, the Pani, I couldn’t find a spec for)

The leica lens being better? Is that confirmed, and again, does my previous question make this a non-issue? I would be willing to bet that the canon lens would beet the leica.

Keying? I don’t plan to do much keying, I don’t have much experience with keying and the little I do was done with a hardware keyer in a studio. Wouldn’t more resolution make a better key? Would the uncompressed output of the canon and sony make keying easier? (The HDMI output option would make things very inexpensive for an uncompressed workflow)

Editing workflow quams: Would the add on hard drive for the sony be able to output via HDMI? If not, maybe in a future firmware version? Capturing hdv as dvcprohd or even the dnxhd codec for avid would probably quell this.

I am not interested in the hvx, partly because of the p2 format, but mostly because of the reviews I have read about this camera. Check out this post, http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77039
Lots of gret info.
I was considering buying a dvc-30, because I was amazed at how good the images were comming from a $1700 camera. Does a grand make the difference just to go with a format the encodes at four times the bit rate? Is the camera worth the extra information being encoded?
I hope my questions were pertinet and well founded and I will be able to find the answers somewhere.

Thanks to all of objective people who have posted here…

Greg

P.S. the dynamic range of the hangglider footage is almost as good as 35mm stills I had digitally scaned.

]]> By: Josh Mehler http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-3517 Josh Mehler Tue, 07 Nov 2006 01:43:17 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-3517 This is a great article and discussion, thank you all so much. I've been so confused about which camera to get on my limited budget that this honest conversation is VERY helpful. So, I'm an independent producer and indi-sfx guy. I don't want any problems keying my green screens, and I'm willing to pay more (I suppose, sigh) for the HVX200 if the DVCPROHD is really that much better than the HDV from this new Sony... But, I wonder what the images will look like compared to the HVX. Can anybody speak to what shot against shot these cameras will do? I mean, maybe the new COMOS chips will look super sweet? Maybe not. Anybody? Thanks again for this great discussion... Josh This is a great article and discussion, thank you all so much. I’ve been so confused about which camera to get on my limited budget that this honest conversation is VERY helpful.

So, I’m an independent producer and indi-sfx guy. I don’t want any problems keying my green screens, and I’m willing to pay more (I suppose, sigh) for the HVX200 if the DVCPROHD is really that much better than the HDV from this new Sony…

But, I wonder what the images will look like compared to the HVX. Can anybody speak to what shot against shot these cameras will do? I mean, maybe the new COMOS chips will look super sweet? Maybe not. Anybody?

Thanks again for this great discussion…

Josh

]]> By: marx http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-3201 marx Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:09:47 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-3201 Would the avid DNxHD codec solve any postproduction issues? Avid claimed that it would be free for everybody to use, someday. Would the avid DNxHD codec solve any postproduction issues? Avid claimed that it would be free for everybody to use, someday.

]]> By: Doctiloquus http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-2972 Doctiloquus Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:08:34 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-2972 That should be "plague" not "plauge," naturally. Bleh. That should be “plague” not “plauge,” naturally. Bleh.

]]> By: Doctiloquus http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-2971 Doctiloquus Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:06:31 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-2971 Gearhead arguments have always annoyed me, so it's refreshing to read a similar attitude on your site, finally, Josh. Having said that, I do have a quibble with your support of HDV. This quibble is not based on hardware, but rather software, specifically codecs. HDV uses the GOP-based MPEG2 format which is absolutely atrocious when it comes to editing. This is a critical point, and what killed HDV for me when I finally had the "opportunity" to work with it. You said it yourself above when you addressed the three main criticisms of HDV: "HDV conforming issues suck [...] DVCPRO HD is certainly preferred." Again, this is what rules HDV out for me forever. Again, this isn't about hardware or cameras, per se. It's about using a codec that causes the least amount of problems. As an artist, I absolutely detest dealing with "video problems." I want high quality images, but more importantly, I want workflow simplicity and tools that reduce the risk of encountering technical difficulties. In this way, the ability to acquire using the frame-specific, editor-friendly DVCPRO-HD format is worth the $800 difference in price between the two cameras you compared here. No question. I would tell my consultation clients to avoid HDV like the plauge. It is a cynical format that sacrifices editing quality for acquisition quality. Your footage may look great on the original tape, but it will fail you where it matters most: in post-production. The $800 saved buying the Sony over the HVX is fool's gold. Gearhead arguments have always annoyed me, so it’s refreshing to read a similar attitude on your site, finally, Josh.

Having said that, I do have a quibble with your support of HDV. This quibble is not based on hardware, but rather software, specifically codecs.

HDV uses the GOP-based MPEG2 format which is absolutely atrocious when it comes to editing. This is a critical point, and what killed HDV for me when I finally had the “opportunity” to work with it. You said it yourself above when you addressed the three main criticisms of HDV: “HDV conforming issues suck [...] DVCPRO HD is certainly preferred.” Again, this is what rules HDV out for me forever.

Again, this isn’t about hardware or cameras, per se. It’s about using a codec that causes the least amount of problems. As an artist, I absolutely detest dealing with “video problems.” I want high quality images, but more importantly, I want workflow simplicity and tools that reduce the risk of encountering technical difficulties. In this way, the ability to acquire using the frame-specific, editor-friendly DVCPRO-HD format is worth the $800 difference in price between the two cameras you compared here. No question.

I would tell my consultation clients to avoid HDV like the plauge. It is a cynical format that sacrifices editing quality for acquisition quality. Your footage may look great on the original tape, but it will fail you where it matters most: in post-production. The $800 saved buying the Sony over the HVX is fool’s gold.

]]> By: carlanga http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-2461 carlanga Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:38:34 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-2461 Just two things: HVX has Leica lens, Sony hasn't. Leica lens are better than Sony's. They have a better picture quality. Salud! Just two things:
HVX has Leica lens, Sony hasn’t. Leica lens are better than Sony’s. They have a better picture quality.
Salud!

]]> By: Pat http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-2375 Pat Sat, 23 Sep 2006 01:09:25 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-2375 I say this because I'm shooting something with a... gasp!... xl2 next month. Yeah. I said it. Standard Def. Not my choice, but the director's. I say this because I’m shooting something with a… gasp!… xl2 next month.

Yeah. I said it. Standard Def.

Not my choice, but the director’s.

]]> By: Pat http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-2371 Pat Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:21:56 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-2371 I want to meet girls. Canon here I come. 'Cause it just looks so f'n sexy on my broad manly shoulders... I want to meet girls. Canon here I come. ‘Cause it just looks so f’n sexy on my broad manly shoulders…

]]> By: theodore http://www.joshoakhurst.com/2006/09/19/sonys-new-hvx-200-p2-killer-and-why-im-staying-out-of-this-flame-war/#comment-2367 theodore Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:34:27 +0000 http://www.joshoakhurst.com/?p=291#comment-2367 Josh your dead on. You can have the new 4:4:4 camera, the $40,000 AVID machine with greatest of set of After Effects plug-ins and you will still make an awful steaming pile of ... video, if you don't know how to use those tools. If you like uncompressed, buy a HVX-200. If you can only afford a V1U, buy a V1U. If you value ergonomics, buy a JVC. If you want to meet girls, buy a Cannon. Doesn't matter. It's a bad workman that blames his tools and what ends up on the screen is all that matters. Josh your dead on.

You can have the new 4:4:4 camera, the $40,000 AVID machine with greatest of set of After Effects plug-ins and you will still make an awful steaming pile of … video, if you don’t know how to use those tools.

If you like uncompressed, buy a HVX-200. If you can only afford a V1U, buy a V1U. If you value ergonomics, buy a JVC. If you want to meet girls, buy a Cannon. Doesn’t matter.

It’s a bad workman that blames his tools and what ends up on the screen is all that matters.

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